Genova Burns LLC Labor Attorneys Edward Bonett, Jr., Esq. and Judith Kramer, Esq. talk Union, impact and a little singing

Edward J. Bonett, Jr.
Genova Burns has been servicing our client's corporate needs for the last 35 years. John Quincy Adams said it best, whoever tells the best story wins. So here is our story. My name is Edward Bonnet. I'm a labor law attorney with Genova Burns.
Genova Burns has been one of the most successful traditional labor law firms in the Northeast. We have a full service firm. My background is in traditional labor law. I worked for the National Labor Relations Board for 22 years before coming here.
And I'm proud to be with Genova Burns. We represent employers. And I feel, as does everyone in the firm, that the employers are the job creators of our society. So we represent these companies and the companies provide the jobs that create economic growth for society.
I'm here today with my colleague, Judy Kramer.

Judith R. Kramer
Hello, Ed and I are kicking off the Genova Burns podcast series on labor law and other legal topics that might be relevant to our existing and potential new clients. Today I want to briefly talk about two significant recent decisions that came down.
In 2023, the National Labor Relations Board issued its decision in the CEMEX matter, which overturned a 52-year union organizing process. And the Loper-Bright decision issued by the U.S. Supreme Court in June of 2024 overturned a longstanding deference that courts used to give to federal agencies' interpretation of ambiguous statutory language. That was known as the Chevron deference. Ed, what are the impacts of the CEMEX decision?

Edward J. Bonett, Jr.
That decision really kind of turns on its head the whole secret ballot election process. Typically, before the CEMEX decision, if a union filed a petition for representing employees then they would have to go to the National Labor Relations Board and the board would schedule a secret ballot election.
In the meantime, both sides could campaign and explain their positions. An employer would have an opportunity to explain why it believes it should remain as a merit shop employer. And, of course, the union can explain to employees why it thinks they should unionize.
And there would be an election. Now, with this decision, the onus is on the company to go file for an election. So the default is going to typically be that if the union has a majority of cards signed that they could be recognized even without an election.
So we guide companies through that process to preserve the secret ballot election, which we think, and obviously we think that for the past 50 some years it's been the case, that secret ballot elections are a better judge of what employees are looking for.
With the Loper case that overturned the Chevron deference, basically now courts, rather than simply deferring to federal agencies and saying, well, they know best, the courts will say, well, wait a minute, let's take our own look at it, because oftentimes agencies are guided by who's in office, right?
I mean, that's the reality of it. Typically, politics may decide which way from one administration to the next. So with this decision, with overturning this deference that the agencies had, courts are saying we want to take our own fresh look at the statute involved in the case.
And so there could be less political flip-flopping, or in some regards maybe cases would get backed up a little bit more because courts are going to take a longer look at it. So we haven't figured out yet exactly what's going to happen, but frankly, I think there's a good chance that courts will end this sort of flip-flopping from one administration to another.
Judy, do you know, have courts already been weighing in on this?

Judith R. Kramer
The CEMEX’s repercussions have already been felt, Ed. On May 14, 2024, the US District Court from Massachusetts granted the National Labor Relations first petition for an injunction relief under this new framework set up in CEMEX's case.
It set aside the results of an election, and it issued a remedial bargaining order. In addition, on November 2, 2023, the National Labor Relations General Council issued some guidance regarding the CEMEX's decision.
And in this guidance, the General Counsel opined that any informal oral demand for recognition made by anyone acting as an agent of the employer will satisfy the requirement and trigger an employer's obligation to recognize the union or file its own petition.
So the lesson here is training really needs to be provided to all the supervisors and agents of the company. They need to be able to recognize what constitute a demand for union recognition and conduct a robust education on what those employers are allowed to do and not do during an election campaign to avoid any allegations of unfair labor practice charges.
So Ed, how do these kinds of cases relate to the normal population that we deal with, from very large employers to the mom and pop shop employers?

Edward J. Bonett, Jr.
Well, that's a good question, Judy. I think I'd like to bring that question back to our philosophy with labor law in general. I mean, labor law is a field that requires relationships, requires building relationships.
And that's what it's really all about. At the end of the day, people have to live with each other. Employees have to live with their employers. And so our philosophy is to build these relationships, build them with our clients, and build them even with union-side attorneys that we often work with.
We try to understand when to compromise and when to dig in. But again, it's all about relationships. And I have a little bit of an anecdote that I can share. My father-in-law, who's a very dear fellow, he's a hairdresser in South Philadelphia, a working-class neighborhood in Philadelphia with long-standing traditions and culture.
So he's been cutting hair in South Philadelphia for close to 60 years. And many of his current clients have been with him that long. He's frankly a magician in creating beautiful hairdos. But at any rate, when I was in law school, we spent a whole class talking about how my father-in-law is a good example of what an attorney should be.
He listens to his customers. He's very discreet. He understands, he remembers things about their personal situation, whether they've been ill, whether they have a family member who's ill. He knows to ask about those things.

He's kind. He'll offer them a ride if they need it. He makes sure that they have a ride at the end of the hairdressing session. So it's really all about building relationships. We, in many of the same ways, we at Genova Burns, try to do that with our clients.
We try to be as kind and understand their personal needs, understand where they're coming from, and understand situations. You know, what is it really about? Let's try to get to the nub of what the situation is really about and understand it.
And so while we're not going to style anyone's hair, we are going to offer excellent service, especially in the labor law field, where Judy and I work.

Judith R. Kramer
What do you think about the current political situation in connection with labor law and the fact that it's currently a presidential election year?

Edward J. Bonett, Jr.
That's a good question and we have to keep that in mind when we advise our clients, obviously. So some administrations are going to be more labor friendly and therefore that sort of trickles down into the government policy, maybe even into the courts, certainly into the administrative agencies.
Some administrations are going to be more business friendly or business centered. And so when we have a case, we not only have to look at what the law is now, but we have to try to predict what's going to happen.
If there's a charge, let's say an unfair labor practice charge, we have to look at it from what are the possibilities? And what are the possibilities if administrations change? Because in a few months it may, and so we try to get a handle on where it's going and advise the clients that way.
And that's why I say there's some cases that compromise. Settlement is not a bad word. There are times where you have to dig in and try a case. We don't necessarily go willy nilly into trials, and trials are great for television, but sometimes they're not the right thing in real life, but sometimes they are.
Sometimes you have to really dig in and take a stand. But we have to take that into account because we don't want to just simply go down a path and go over the cliff. We have to understand what the political climate is and what it might be.
One thing, Judy, that interests me, and I know both of us have children entering the workforce, is where do you think work is going? We've seen a lot of changes, both of us, even in recent years, with more remote work and so forth and so on.
What kind of things do you think our children might see?

Judith R. Kramer
To be honest, I'm a little worried about what our children are going to see in the future. I think that this generation does not have the work ethic and the dedication that we were raised with. So I have a few in college right now.
They are trying to figure out what to do in their future. I think that they are a little leery about how much things cost and are they ever really going to be able to get out of the house and be on their own?
But, you know, they are all so excited to enter the workforce too and try to make a difference in the world, which I guess everybody in their 20’s should be in that mindset of how can I make a difference?
So hopefully with that mindset they will figure out a work ethic and get out there and be helpful to the societies.

Edward J. Bonett, Jr.
They have some things to contend with, like artificial intelligence and, of course... Automation. Automation and so forth. More gig economy, I guess. Right. It's more common.
And I honestly think that the jobs that our kids will have 10 years from now may not exist today. So that's a really big challenge for them because we sort of had traditional roles that we went into, but with the internet and social media and everything else out there, we never had influencers making money.

Judith R. Kramer
Now it's crazy.

Edward J. Bonett, Jr.
So what I see, and maybe you can help me understand, is it's not just unionizing that's happening, right? It's sort of protected, concerted activity, other activity that groups are engaging in that might not be union activity that we have to sort of keep an eye on and advise clients about.
Things like protesting the loss of jobs, going from manual jobs to automated, things like artificial intelligence, things like immigration and minimum wage, fight for 15, and things like that. What kind of changes do you see in that regard for protected, concerted activity that companies should be aware of?

Judith R. Kramer
I think rising labor costs, I mean, I know personally of a business in New York City, it was a pizza place that went under because of the $15 minimum wage. Because to pay all the bus people and all of the wait staff and everybody minimum wage, you know, it really, it could sink a business.
So I think that the higher costs that keep increasing and the wages that keep increasing encourage employers to look for automated ways like having orders be done online, instead of having people there they have grub hubs or, you know, those online delivery services instead of staffing up their own stores.
So I think it's going to have some effects, ripple effects going down with automation and AI.

Edward J. Bonett, Jr.
So Judy, you know, I like to think about it in an optimistic way, and that calls to mind a song, actually. And this reminds me to tell everyone that I have a YouTube channel. I hope you can tune in, sing to me, Eddie.
But here's a song for you. Every time it rains, it rains, pennies from heaven. Don't you know every cloud contains pennies from heaven. You'll find your fortune falling all over town. So be sure that your umbrella is upside down.
Trade them for a package of sunshine and flowers. If you want the things you love, you must have showers. So when you hear it raining, don't run under a tree. There will be pennies from heaven for you and me.
So there you are, everybody, the optimistic look, pennies from heaven. There might be clouds, but we're going to make pennies. And that's Eddie Bonett and Judy Kramer. And we're from Genova Burns. Best Wishes.

SingtomeEddie